Aratus and Cleanthes

[Kent Allard]

"For in (God) we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring".

St Paul, Acts 17:28

Not in ourselves, we live, and move, and have our being. No words can better express the continual and necessary dependence of all created beings, in their existence and all their operations, on God alone, which the truest philosophy as well as divinity teaches. As certain also of your own poets have said - Aratus, whose words these are, was an Athenian, who lived almost three hundred years before Christ. They are likewise to be found, with the alteration of one letter only, in the hymn of Cleanthes to Jupiter or the supreme being, one of the purest and finest pieces of natural religion in the whole world of Pagan antiquity.

The above quote mainly from John Wesley. I've been critical of Bob Dylan in the past for the use of pagan sources in his recent work, but here we have none other than Paul the Apostle quoting directly from Greek sources in his evangelistic efforts in Greece.

Are we God's offspring? The traditional Christian view is that we are not, and Paul was simply using these quotes as a deceptive device to convert the Greeks. I don't believe that for one minute. We need to revise our coventional views of God and the whole of mankind in the light of this.

[Kent Allard]

Cleanthes (331-232 B.C.) was a disciple of Zeno the Stoic. He considered the universe a living being and said that God was the soul of the universe and the sun its heart.

Most glorious of the immortals, invoked by many names, ever all-powerful,
Zeus, the First Cause of Nature, who rules all things with Law,
Hail! It is right for mortals to call upon you,
since from you we have our being, we whose lot it is to be God's image,
we alone of all mortal creatures that live and move upon the earth.
Accordingly, I will praise you with my hymn and ever sing of your might.
The whole universe, spinning around the earth,
goes wherever you lead it and is willingly guided by you.
So great is the servant which you hold in your invincible hands,
your eternal, two-edged, lightning-forked thunderbolt.
By its strokes all the works of nature came to be established,
and with it you guide the universal Word of Reason which moves through all creation,
mingling with the great sun and the small stars.
O God, without you nothing comes to be on earth,
neither in the region of the heavenly poles, nor in the sea,
except what evil men do in their folly.
But you know how to make extraordinary things suitable,
and how to bring order forth from chaos; and even that which is unlovely is lovely to you.
For thus you have joined all things, the good with the bad, into one,
so that the eternal Word of all came to be one.
This Word, however, evil mortals flee, poor wretches;
though they are desirous of good things for their possession,
they neither see nor listen to God's universal Law;
and yet, if they obey it intelligently, they would have the good life.
But they are senselessly driven to one evil after another:
some are eager for fame, no matter how godlessly it is acquired;
others are set on making money without any orderly principles in their lives;
and others are bent on ease and on the pleasures and delights of the body.
They do these foolish things, time and again,
and are swept along, eagerly defeating all they really wish for.
O Zeus, giver of all, shrouded in dark clouds and holding the vivid bright lightning,
rescue men from painful ignorance.
Scatter that ignorance far from their hearts.
and deign to rule all things in justice.
so that, honored in this way, we may render honor to you in return,
and sing your deeds unceasingly, as befits mortals;
for there is no greater glory for men
or for gods than to justly praise the universal Word of Reason.

[Landys ghost]

Oh Gawd he's off again on his pointless drivel

[Kent Allard]

Oh Gawd he's off again on his pointless drivel

Hardly. There's nothing wrong with a little education on ancient Greek poets and philosophers. Unless you already happened to know all this.

Thanks for not accusing me of being a fake and a plagiarist!

[triangular!]

You're a polygamist and wow LUCKY STRIKE, eh?

[Landys ghost]

"Useless and pointless knowledge"....Bob Dylan Tombstone Blues, Highway 61 1965

just hinterlecshual snobbery,no ones interested

[Landys ghost]

Oh go on then...I'll bite [ no one else will ] youve set out the thing now a good teacher will explain it to we retards, you know you want to

now if you really want education read my memoirs ha ha

[Kent Allard]

Oh go on then...I'll bite [ no one else will ]

Why not?

[Landys ghost]

Why not?

why not what?

[Kent Allard]

why not what?

Well basically you have to understand that my posts are not made in the expectation of replies, but I like to share facts that others may find interesting. If they don't like my threads they don't have to read them. But I note that you always post, sometimes with sensible comments. I welcome that

[Landys ghost]

Well basically you have to understand that my posts are not made in the expectation of replies, but I like to share facts that others may find interesting. If they don't like my threads they don't have to read them. But I note that you always post, sometimes with sensible comments. I welcome that

Yes , but only "sometimes" -- but you must surely have expectations of incurring some reaction or affecting someones thought process otherwise you might just as well post the Mansfield and Lincs train time table

[Kent Allard]

Yes , but only "sometimes" -- but you must surely have expectations of incurring some reaction or affecting someones thought process otherwise you might just as well post the Mansfield and Lincs train time table

Well I felt in all sincerity that this stuff might relate to Dylan, in the sense that he's be delving a lot into the literature of antiquity for his recent work. That sparked me off... I've been reading Ovid's Metamorphoses recently. A lot of Aratus and Cleanthes philosophy has found its way into Ovid..hence to Dylan, as I figure it.

[Landys ghost]

Well I felt in all sincerity that this stuff might relate to Dylan, in the sense that he's be delving a lot into the literature of antiquity for his recent work. That sparked me off... I've been reading Ovid's Metamorphoses recently. A lot of Aratus and Cleanthes philosophy has found its way into Ovid..hence to Dylan, as I figure it.

Thats a very clever connection, who knows uh? it's your opinion and yoiur welcome to it but it's gone over our heads , sorry

[Kent Allard]

Fair enough

[Isis]

I guess I was thinking about something else?