Tree of Good and Evil

[Kent Allard]

God he began his creation
All things shone brilliant bright
His Spirit on the water
Made all things good
Man he created most like himself
Offspring watching from the wings

Adam and Eve worked the garden
God sternly warned and pleaded
"Leave the Tree of Good and Evil well alone
Or your untimely death is certain, guaranteed and assured"

Satan entered offering truths and lies in strange combinations
His part difficult and as always unrehearsed
"Eat the fruit and you'll be just like the boss
You'll understand deep eternal truths
You'll escape death - no problem at all"

The fateful couple ate and gained clear vision
Their primal fear grew quickly with their knowledge
Hid from their only friend, a young ancient of days
Who in perfectly-stated desperation screamed
"Where are you?"

God turned to an unkown audience, one of whom was me
"So now man is like us, knowing good and evil"
Satan's a liar but he tells half the truth
Man's likeness to God is almost complete
It needed a villain to play his part

(Act 1 ends.. Theatre of Divine Comedy)

[Landys ghost]

What do you expect us to say?

Fuck me! thats astonishing that is ...yeah whatever, I'm tiring of this

[Isis]

I find it interesting. We have free agency. We can chose good and we can chose evil.

[Landys ghost]

I find it interesting. We have free agency. We can chose good and we can chose evil.

Doh --- is that right?

[thin man]

I need a piss... where's a tree when you need one?

[Isis]

God he began his creation
All things shone brilliant bright
His Spirit on the water
Made all things good
Man he created just like himself
Offspring watching from the wings

Adam and Eve worked the garden
God sternly warned and pleaded
"Leave the Tree of Good and Evil well alone
Or your untimely death is certain, guaranteed and assured"

Satan entered offering truths and lies in strange combinations
His part difficult and as always unrehearsed
"Eat the fruit and you'll be just like the boss
You'll understand deep eternal truths
You'll escape death - no problem at all"

The fateful couple ate and gained clear vision
Their primal fear grew quickly with their knowledge
Hid from their only friend, a young ancient of days
Who in perfectly-stated desperation screamed
"Where are you?"

God turned to an unkown audience, one of whom was me
"So now man is truly like us, knowing good and evil"
Satan's a liar but he tells half the truth
Man's likeness to God is strangely complete
It needed a villain to play his part

(Act 1 ends.. Theatre of Divine Comedy)

Adam and Eve had free agency. God adviced them, but they chosed not to listen to him. Now it is up to Adam and Eve to figure out how they can come back to Him.
If they do not care about any truths then to come back to God won't matter to them and they will go their own way wherever that is......
Maybe they will follow Satan

Maybe truth and the kindness and love of God will matter...it is up to the individual....

Landy's turn to say something smart......:flogged:

[Kent Allard]

Sandrine has turned into Linda...she always posts on my threads. But it's a little different.

Note that this is a re-written version of the Genesis story. It's more of a philosophical proposal than a poem.

[Isis]

oh Sandrine makes me feel lyrical as soon as I see her....what a sweet heart. For her the rose must blossom.....

[Kent Allard]

I need a piss... where's a tree when you need one?

You ole' dog, you

[zimmy]

And we shall be known by our fruits. I'm sure everyone has heard the saying, The apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

[Landys ghost]

"known by our fruits" ?

[Sandrine]

"Satan's a liar but he tells half the truth"

Satan is the king of liar.
All lie is something wrong but all something wrong isn't a lie
Even if Satan doesn't see the future, he want to fight.

[Isis]

[QUOTE=Sandrine;7197]"Satan's a liar but he tells half the truth"

Satan is the king of liar.
All lie is something wrong but all something wrong isn't a lie
Even if Satan doesn't see the future, he want to fight.[/QUOT

Satan is also so miserable and he wants to make everybody miserable just like him. He wants to destroy all of God's creation and everything in it. And he's greatest trick is to make people think he doesn't exist, because then he can operate more smoothly. He is not stupid, but very intelligent. I do not underestimate neither his power nor his ability to
fool people.

[Landys ghost]

Fuck me! "no hell below us, above us only sky"

[Kent Allard]

Satan is a lead player in the theatre of divine comedy. His only virtue is his sincerity

[Landys ghost]

Invented by ignorant people to explain away why there's evil ..."oow it cant be that he/she is bad , Satan made'em do it" fucking baloney,people are brought up and either foul up or not theres no guiding hand of evil , you might just as well invent a character called Duckula to be your bogeyman

[Isis]

Satan is a lead player in the theatre of divine comedy. His only virtue is his sincerity

and determination also maybe to destroy and hinder all efforts to save the planet from final destruction?

[Isis]

Man thinks cuz he rules the earth
he can do with it as he pleases

[Sandrine]

Satan didn't oblige Eve to eat the apple. He didn't give her the fruit (a snake have no arms)
She made her own decision.

[Landys ghost]

Man thinks cuz he rules the earth
he can do with it as he pleases

That line could apply to any environmental issue

[Landys ghost]

Satan didn't oblige Eve to eat the apple. He didn't give her the fruit (a snake have no arms)
She made her own decision.

Allegorical myth

[Landys ghost]

"Adam this is a lovely garden, it took me 6 days to build it and you can do whatever you want here BUT DONT EAT THE APPLES AND DONT GO SWIMMING"

"Oh ..ok "

but it was a warm summer and Eve was very hot, very hot

"Oh Adam baby I'm so hot"
"You can say that gain babe"
"I'm so hot and that water looks sooo cool"
"Hey c'mon babes you know what the hairy voice said"

and so it went on until, one day

"How about a BJ Eve?"

"I want a fuckin' wash Adam! can I go in that refreshing water"
"Then I get to have a BJ?"
"Yes"
"Awright then, quick now, maybe hairy voice isnt looking"

and off Eve traipsed taking off her fig leaves as she went

Later

"Oi! Adam"
"Yes?"
"Wheres Eve?"
"Dunno,feeding the camels maybe"
"She aint there man"
"I dunno - really"
"She's taking a dip aint she, [sigh]?"
"What harm can it do?"

"YOU IDIOT!! NOW ALL THE FISH WILL SMELL!!!!"

[thin man]

"YOU IDIOT!! NOW ALL THE FISH WILL SMELL!!!!"


hahahaha.... haaaaaaaaaaa

[thin man]

the concept of Satan is outside the spectrum of my beliefs

[Kent Allard]

and determination also maybe to destroy and hinder all efforts to save the planet from final destruction?

Satan is determined to harm humankind beacuse of it's special relationship to God.

Satan must have overheard God commanding the two not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge. Wherein lies the first deception.

[Landys ghost]

how do you know...lighten up

[Isis]

how do you know...lighten up He knows by comparing what is written in Bible to what is going on today, Murders, hunger, wars, earthquakes, tzunamis. It is not so easy for the people that are getting affected by all this? And the horrors are only getting worse? The end of times started with a dictator called Adolf...or around there I think?

[Folf]

He knows by comparing what is written in Bible to what is going on today, Murders, hunger, wars, earthquakes, tzunamis. It is not so easy for the people that are getting affected by all this? And the horrors are only getting worse? The end of times started with a dictator called Adolf...or around there I think?

Earthquakes, tsunamis... These are natural... There is no hand causing these to occur or directing these toward others. It is not horrible that these occur.


Murders, hunger, wars... Hitler..? Adolf spelled the end for many people, but not for humanity. Although I might be closely affected by such people and occurrences, they are nothing new.

You've talked about choice. I imagine you do your best to counter such negativity.

[Isis]

I wish I could do something about it, but I don't have that kind of superpowers. I try to remain as positive as I can be even though I must say all these things scare me. I think we are bombarded with it in the media all the time? And Hollywood make even scarier movies to scare us even more?
When I was young we were able to see movies about compassion for the underdog. Now you don't see that so much any more? I think it is important that we can see uplifting stuff so we will be able to deal with all the bad stuff happening?

[thin man]

He knows by comparing what is written in Bible to what is going on today, Murders, hunger, wars, earthquakes, tzunamis. It is not so easy for the people that are getting affected by all this? And the horrors are only getting worse? The end of times started with a dictator called Adolf...or around there I think?

I THINK! you ought to stop writing things like this... even if you believe what you write...

[thin man]

I wish I could do something about it, but I don't have that kind of superpowers.

and who does.... iyo?

[Isis]

I am just very upset and depressed about the latest oilspill. It affects me in a very negative way yes. I am afraid for the future of the oceans and I am worried about the fish. I can not be happy at all. I am sorry if I made somebody sad too. I did not mean to.

[thin man]

oh!

[Kent Allard]

Finally..folks here are showing their true colours. Thank you.

[Kent Allard]

.

[Folf]

I wish I could do something about it, but I don't have that kind of superpowers. I try to remain as positive as I can be even though I must say all these things scare me. I think we are bombarded with it in the media all the time? And Hollywood make even scarier movies to scare us even more?
When I was young we were able to see movies about compassion for the underdog. Now you don't see that so much any more? I think it is important that we can see uplifting stuff so we will be able to deal with all the bad stuff happening?

Superpowers? You sound sensitive and genuinely concerned about what is happening around you... though you also sound overwhelmed, depressed and defeated.

Have you done anything that feels good lately? ... Can you afford a weekend at the spa? Not as an escape, but because it feels nice and would be good for you in various ways?

The only decent movie that comes to mind... is Gattaca. Have you seen this movie?

[Cupid Stunt]

Finally..folks here are showing their true colours. Thank you.

Which folks and why?

[Landys ghost]

Finally..folks here are showing their true colours. Thank you.

Hey I've never denied anything, what are these true colours then? and do you have a problem?

[Isis]

Superpowers? You sound sensitive and genuinely concerned about what is happening around you... though you also sound overwhelmed, depressed and defeated.

Have you done anything that feels good lately? ... Can you afford a weekend at the spa? Not as an escape, but because it feels nice and would be good for you in various ways?

The only decent movie that comes to mind... is Gattaca. Have you seen this movie?

It is very kind of you Folf. Yes I have done some good stuff lately too. I had a friend that came and stayed with me last weekend and we had a good time. He is a space scientist and it was a pleasure to have him here. He is a relative of mine. I am mostly concerned about the next generation. I feel it is so unfair to them that we have all these problems with the enviroment and so forth. When I was younger it was even more difficult for me to deal with this. it is still difficult but I have more or less given up and when you get to that point it is depressing. Before this oilspill tragedy they were already talking about overfishing so much that the fish in the sea would disappear. Imagine the price of fish in the future?

Ok it is too heavy right? I got to go watch the annoying orange I guess or I'll be crying all day long...

[Isis]

The religious aspects of good and evil versus God and Satan are indeed very puzzeling........I mean not even Einstein was able to come up with exact answers to that? Or maybe he did but I missed it? lol

[Sandrine]

"Their primal fear grew quickly with their knowledge
Hid from their only friend, a young ancient of days
Who in perfectly-stated desperation screamed
"Where are you?""


Who is their friend ?

[Kent Allard]

"Their primal fear grew quickly with their knowledge
Hid from their only friend, a young ancient of days
Who in perfectly-stated desperation screamed
"Where are you?""


Who is their friend ?

The ancient of days. God the Father...in this scenario

[Sandrine]

thank you

[Landys ghost]

Which folks and why?

he doesnt seem capable of "manning up" on that one Cupe

[Cupid Stunt]

he doesnt seem capable of "manning up" on that one Cupe

I think he meant Isis mate, she's really been getting on his tits lately,there's a fight brewing.

[Kent Allard]

All I meant was people were getting a little heated and expressing their real views.

I am constantly under attack here. I am a sensitive soul and a lot of this upsets me, to the core.

[Landys ghost]

All I meant was people were getting a little heated and expressing their real views.

I am constantly under attack here. I am a sensitive soul and a lot of this upsets me, to the core.

Then you really should pay heed to the last verse of Frankie Lee, your beliefs and methods of expression are , generally , out of kilter. Now you must, unto yourself be true, but if you stick your head above the trench then................

[Kent Allard]

Haaaha. Only kidding. I care little what people think of my views. If they are out of kilter, hard cheese. I'm not tied to Dylan songs for my life's philosophy.

[Isis]

All I meant was people were getting a little heated and expressing their real views.

I am constantly under attack here. I am a sensitive soul and a lot of this upsets me, to the core.

oh............lol

[Kent Allard]

Hehehee

[zimmy]

as far as the tree of knowledge goes, leave it
heh heh

[Landys ghost]

Haaaha. Only kidding. I care little what people think of my views. If they are out of kilter, hard cheese. I'm not tied to Dylan songs for my life's philosophy.

Shame,when you gonna wake up?

[Kent Allard]

According to Dylan, the whole world is asleep (Blind Willie McTell). Pretty much true, I think.

[Landys ghost]

I think you'll find thats "Lord Protect my Child"...Kent,why do you persist with this place if we're so heathenish? your not converting anyone, you havent "saved any souls" as Ginsberg said

[Isis]

According to Dylan, the whole world is asleep (Blind Willie McTell). Pretty much true, I think.

ZZzzZZzzZzzzZzzz What did somebody say something? ZzzZZzZzzzzZzzzZzzZZzz

[Kent Allard]

...your not converting anyone, you havent "saved any souls" as Ginsberg said

Well, I don't preach the Gospel of the New Testament so much as the Gospel of the Apocalypse. They're a little different

[Landys ghost]

well dont preach! we dont want it - apocalpse phooey

[Kent Allard]

I have never preached on this board....but here's an opinion for you

The Gospel of the New Testament is about Jesus and 13 Apostles

The Gospel of the Apocalypse is about Jesus, 4 Horsemen, 2 witnesses, a Beast, a Dragon, a False Prophet and subliminal cuts in M&A.

[Landys ghost]

groan.........your assuming two things

1] that theres validity in this

2]that people should believe it

[Landys ghost]

and just to show I'm not always nasty....I found this

Issue 30 The Bridge Spring 2008

LET US NOT TALK FALSELY: Bob Dylan's Moral and Apocalyptic Vision.
by Neil Burns

[Kent Allard]

Haven't read it. Is there something about

God's Mistake

in there?

[Landys ghost]

Haven't read it. Is there something about

God's Mistake

in there?

I havent read it either, not something thats of interest to me

[Kent Allard]

The Beast is God Himself...thankfully


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_WDG8iLT1o

[Sandrine]

Is it the same thing than : if you can't cut this hand, kiss her ?

What is the God's Mistake ?

[Kent Allard]

What is the God's Mistake ?

I don't really know...it's a concept created by Bob Dylan in the Masked and Anonymous movie.

The idea that God might make a mistake is a clever suggestion, not a fact...or is it?

[Sandrine]

I saw 1x Masked And Anonymous movie. I don't remember it well.

We can suggest something real.

[Landys ghost]

I don't really know...it's a concept created by Bob Dylan in the Masked and Anonymous movie.

The idea that God might make a mistake is a clever suggestion, not a fact...or is it?

listen butty you really ought to stop making these presumptious comments based on unvalidated personal assumptions it really is getting on my tits now

[Kent Allard]

What have I said that's presumptuous? I can easily back up both of my last two posts. If you require it.

[Kent Allard]

I saw 1x Masked And Anonymous movie. I don't remember it well.

We can suggest something real.

You mean that God's Mistake is real?

You should see M&A again. There's a lot in there easily missed on the first viewing. Dylan is someone who has a good deal to say.

[Landys ghost]

"In the dime stores and bus stations
people talk over situations
read books repeat quotations
draw conclusions on the wall"

[Sandrine]

I suppose that even him, do mistake.

"Dylan is someone who has a good deal to say."
yes...in this movie.

[Kent Allard]

...hmm...God doesn't make mistakes

[triangular!]

I believe in dragons and wonderful husbands and other fantasy creatures and stuff and such.

~ triangular!

[Kent Allard]

The Beast's character is described in both Hosea 13, and Revelation 13, a the form of a leopard, bear and lion. I assume that the same beast is being described in each passage.

Hosea 13

...So I will come upon them like a lion, like a leopard I will lurk by the path. Like a bear robbed of her cubs, I will attack them and rip them open. Like a lion I will devour them; a wild animal will tear them apart. "You are destroyed, O Israel, because you are against me, against your helper".

Revelation 13

And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. He had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on his horns, and on each head a blasphemous name. The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion.

[Isis]

...hmm...God doesn't make mistakes

He is actually the only one that knows what he is doing me thinks?

[Kent Allard]

God's not an individual

[Landys ghost]

The Beast's character is described in both Hosea 13, and Revelation 13, a the form of a leopard, bear and lion. I assume that the same beast is being described in each passage.

Hosea 13

...So I will come upon them like a lion, like a leopard I will lurk by the path. Like a bear robbed of her cubs, I will attack them and rip them open. Like a lion I will devour them; a wild animal will tear them apart. "You are destroyed, O Israel, because you are against me, against your helper".

Revelation 13

And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. He had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on his horns, and on each head a blasphemous name. The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion.

Ah so he doesnt have an 'orn on every 'ed then? so how could he have ten crowns on ten 'orns,there were only 7 eds, some crowns must have doubled up

Looks like plagiarism to me, naughty John copying Hosea like that, gullible people will think it means something because TWO people have said something similar - you wouldnt believe it if John had written about a bunny, a toad and a stoat

But what I want to know is ;
who decided this piece of nonsense should go in the finished book?
[ was Gawd the publisher? ] and who decided
"Well John it's very mysterious and vague,in 2000 years time people will think "this is a right puzzler it must mean something", so we'll say that rather than you being a weirdo and Phsycotic it was dictated to you by Gad...ok? no royalties just a sainthood...deal?"

[Kent Allard]

The book of Revelation is presented as a vision received while in some kind trance, so it's a dream record, if you like. The Revelation beast is clearly derived from the Hosea beast, the 7 heads I believe relate to God himself, whose own number is 7, repeatedly thoughout Revelation. But earlier in Revelation Satan is ascribed the number 7...maybe indicative of masquerade? I don't know.

[Isis]

Satan can decieve anybody so you think he is good, threfore the mixup I think?

[Landys ghost]

The book of Revelation is presented as a vision received while in some kind trance, so it's a dream record, if you like. The Revelation beast is clearly derived from the Hosea beast, the 7 heads I believe relate to God himself, whose own number is 7, repeatedly thoughout Revelation. But earlier in Revelation Satan is ascribed the number 7...maybe indicative of masquerade? I don't know.

Yeah........ the asylums are full of people who get visions or hear voices telling them to do things, you portray yourself as an intellectual and you believe this??? on what evidence? apart from your own gullibility and blind faith....blimey there goes another flying elephant passed the window

[Kent Allard]

Yeah........ the asylums are full of people who get visions or hear voices telling them to do things, you portray yourself as an intellectual and you believe this??? on what evidence? apart from your own gullibility and blind faith....blimey there goes another flying elephant passed the window

John wasn't in an asylum...and many people have believed in his visions, including Bob Dylan.

[Landys ghost]

John wasn't in an asylum...and many people have believed in his visions, including Bob Dylan.

thats no answer many people believe in Aliens, and just because Dylan leaned that way at times [ doesnt that make you happy? ] doesnt make it right, reasonable or necessarily true [ believe it or not he may not necessaily be the font of all wisdom - he's just a singer], all sorts of people think they get messages from "out there" how come they dont get in the wibble?,people believe all manner of fanciful things, so is the only reason you listen to Dylan is because of this affinity you think you share with him? now thats very blinkered

[Kent Allard]

.. so is the only reason you listen to Dylan is because of this affinity you think you share with him? now thats very blinkered

Hey, thats not fair...I like dancing and playing air guitar to Dreamin of you

[zimmy]

But the Bible said, "Do not eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge"
The only reason it is the tree of good and evil is because the tree was good but the garden people didn't obey. They couldn't be trusted. It was to be the break up of the relationship, except that the people were forgiven. How sweet it is to be loved by God!
peace

[Cupid Stunt]

...hmm...God doesn't make mistakes

It's hard to make mistakes if you don't exist.

[Cupid Stunt]

But what I want to know is ;
who decided this piece of nonsense should go in the finished book?
"

a bunch of humans, just like a bunch of humans wrote everything in the bible and then claimed it was the word of God. Laughable really.

[Isis]

It's hard to make mistakes if you don't exist. I think you should have to prove that God doesn't exist.

[Cupid Stunt]

John wasn't in an asylum...and many people have believed in his visions, including Bob Dylan.

Dylan believed Hurricane Carter was an innocent man, do you also believe that?

[Cupid Stunt]

I think you should have to prove that God doesn't exist.

Well, most of the bible is obviously made up, our knowledge of historical events proves this. Anyway, did you forget that you were pretending to ignore me?

[Landys ghost]

a bunch of humans, just like a bunch of humans wrote everything in the bible and then claimed it was the word of God. Laughable really.

spot on ! I mean , who decided what was in and what was out? only the people who heard voices or had their own propaganda

[Landys ghost]

I think you should have to prove that God doesn't exist.

nonsense, try using rational objective independent thought for a change rather than attributing things to some mythical , nebulous invention

[Isis]

nonsense, try using rational objective independent thought for a change rather than attributing things to some mythical , nebulous invention

PROVE it Landy

[zimmy]

God's Word is awesome. Forever and ever.

[Cupid Stunt]

PROVE it Landy

Prove he exists, I bet you can't.

[Cupid Stunt]

God's Word is awesome. Forever and ever.

Awesome? are you old enough to be posting here?

[Sandrine]

PROVE it Landy


Isis

When my son had an ethmoïdite, it's not to God I said thank you but the doctors who saved my little boy.

[zimmy]

hell yeah I'm old enough :P
nanananaboooboooo

[Cupid Stunt]

Isis

When my son had an ethmoïdite, it's not to God I said thank you but the doctors who saved my little boy.

I've watched people pray and pray to God to save their son from cancer yet to no avail, a long painful death for a small boy who never sinned.

[aspicco]

I haven't read this whole thread... but it is not the "Tree of Good and Evil." It is the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, and there are some who feel this is symbolic of when man went from an intuitive creature to a creature who used logic. THAT was the downfall... thinking!

[Cupid Stunt]

I haven't read this whole thread... but it is not the "Tree of Good and Evil." It is the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, and there are some who feel this is symbolic of when man went from an intuitive creature to a creature who used logic. THAT was the downfall... thinking!

Yeah 'cos if you think about religion logically you'll see it's all bollocks.

[Sandrine]

I've watched people pray and pray to God to save their son from cancer yet to no avail, a long painful death for a small boy who never sinned.


We had luck (I know it).

[Landys ghost]

PROVE it Landy

simple - nothings happened to prove it, now you prove it

[Kent Allard]

Dylan believed Hurricane Carter was an innocent man, do you also believe that?

What???!

[Landys ghost]

What???!

Kent I think Cupe is referring to an actual site which has tried to show that Dylan was "bonkers" in supporting Carter...Dylans is certainly the more romantic view of events, I wouldnt like to hazard a guess...he also champions Joey on that album, and he was no innocent Italian boy, but a vicious scum bag - so , who knows ,maybe D's radar wasnt working , but Carter was exonerated so.........

[Kent Allard]

Carter was exonerated in the Law Courts. We have to conclude, like Bob, that he was an innocent man in a living hell. William Zanzinger received different treatment from Dylan...also fairly I think.

[Sandrine]

"Their primal fear grew quickly with their knowledge"

What are their primal fear ?

[Landys ghost]

Carter was exonerated in the Law Courts. We have to conclude, like Bob, that he was an innocent man in a living hell. William Zanzinger received different treatment from Dylan...also fairly I think.

Well who knows? there was enough doubt keeping him locked up for a long time, I'm not saying your wrong , but Dylan wrote the song 10 years BEFORE Carter was exonerated, and Dylan refuses to talk about it - odd that,I now have an open mind,if you assume the courts put him into prison wrongly then you have to assume that they could have released him wrongly too, but you may well be right

[Kent Allard]

"Their primal fear grew quickly with their knowledge"

What are their primal fear ?

I wrote that without really thinking what it meant. But in the beginning the couple had no fear at all, of anything, before they ate from the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Fear came in as soon as they ate the fruit...first, fear of God (they hid from him). They were terrified of the person that loved them most. Sad and ironic. So the fear continues today.

[Kent Allard]

Dylan wrote the song 10 years BEFORE Carter was exonerated, and Dylan refuses to talk about it - odd that

I agree

[Sandrine]

I wrote that without really thinking what it meant. But in the beginning the couple had no fear at all, of anything, before they ate from the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Fear came in as soon as they ate the fruit...first, fear of God (they hid from him). They were terrified of the person that loved them most. Sad and ironic. So the fear continues today.


Thank you.

The fear continues today because we can't know scientifically what there are after the life.

[Kent Allard]

We say we have no evidence of God around us...yet the truth is staring us in the face.

[Cupid Stunt]

I wrote that without really thinking what it meant.

You mean like when you post your religious beliefs?

[Cupid Stunt]

We say we have no evidence of God around us...yet the truth is staring us in the face.

I disagree.

[Landys ghost]

Thank you.

The fear continues today because we can't know scientifically what there are after the life.

why cant people accept - yes I know it's tough - that we came into existence because of lust/love/duty whatever there is no other "why are we here " ? reason, and theres nothing afterwards,we're just an organism that shuts down,like any other...really,once you accept that life becomes so simple

[Landys ghost]

We say we have no evidence of God around us...yet the truth is staring us in the face.

you mean the "truth" is staring YOU in the face, the truth is what you make it...trust yourself eh?

[Kent Allard]

Whenever we look at another person, we see the face of God, or an aspect of his character.

You do have to 'trust yourself'...Dylan's right about that. If a person doesn't trust him/herself, they will never achieve much. And they won't be able to stand up to personal attacks from others.

[Landys ghost]

you reckon? [ sarcasm ] well your entitled to your point of view, your right from your side and all that... as to personal attacks, well, if the cap fits......

[Kent Allard]

I never make personal attacks on anyone. It's not in my character.

[Landys ghost]

watch your fucking halo dont slip and throttle you

[triangular!]

I never make personal attacks on anyone. It's not in my character.

psss he's lying believe me I'm his wife

[Cupid Stunt]

Whenever we look at another person, we see the face of God, or an aspect of his character.

You do have to 'trust yourself'...Dylan's right about that. If a person doesn't trust him/herself, they will never achieve much. And they won't be able to stand up to personal attacks from others.

So what do you actually believe Kent?

[Kent Allard]

watch your fucking halo dont slip and throttle you

It has done on more than one occasion...I'm sure you would have guessed ;)

[Kent Allard]

So what do you actually believe Kent?

I believe that Jesus is the Son of God, and that mankind is saved through him. But God is not an individual, he's a plural being. Traditional Christian theology says God is in three persons; Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I don't believe it's that simple and the Book of Revelation suggests that God exists in seven persons. That's the position I take.

[Landys ghost]

I believe

Jesus was a 1st Century teacher who attempted to change the way people in a tiny part of the world related to their world and got disposed of for threatening the status quo.

On balance I dont believe in God other than as conscience and morality - but these exist without a superior force

Definately dont believe in bogey men and mythology

[Kent Allard]

So why and how do conscience and morality exist?

[Landys ghost]

So why and how do conscience and morality exist?

well who taught you right from wrong? You know your answer so why ask? it's one of these circuit questions, so lets agree to differ

[Cupid Stunt]

I believe that Jesus is the Son of God, and that mankind is saved through him. But God is not an individual, he's a plural being. Traditional Christian theology says God is in three persons; Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I don't believe it's that simple and the Book of Revelation suggests that God exists in seven persons. That's the position I take.

Why do you believe these things exactly, why believe parts of the bible but disbelieve others? Surely that isn't faith at all?

[Cupid Stunt]

So why and how do conscience and morality exist?

The conscience came with higher intelligence, morality isn't a fixed thing, it changes with the times and locations, everyone has a different idea of what's moral and what's not, if there's only one God (or even seven) then whose idea of morality is right?

[Landys ghost]

The conscience came with higher intelligence, morality isn't a fixed thing, it changes with the times and locations, everyone has a different idea of what's moral and what's not, if there's only one God (or even seven) then whose idea of morality is right?


Morality and conscience are ingrained by the evolution over millions of years of the need to develop a social order for co-existence........IMO

[Landys ghost]

Why do you believe these things exactly, why believe parts of the bible but disbelieve others? Surely that isn't faith at all?

But Cupe thats what Wibble believers always do,he does the same thing with quoting Dylan

[Kent Allard]

Hang on, hang on...tell me what parts of the Bibble I don't believe in and I'll accept your criticism.

[Landys ghost]

we mean your selective...how about levictivus and Deuteronomy? the law of the jungle - an eye for an eye, homophobia,diatery instructions etc

[Sandrine]

An eye for an eye for the pedophiles, the killing rapists....

[Kent Allard]

I believe in Leviticus and Deuteronomy...but Jesus came to take responsibility for those who would suffer death under that regime. Under his care, a prostitute was not stoned to death, but rather set free. He took the punishments instead (unashamed preaching, I know..but you drove me to it).

[Sandrine]

Me, That I don't like in the Bible its 'when we read that women will have their babies strongly, all that because of the false of Eve..

More macho than that, you die..

[Kent Allard]

It's funny, but no other animals have pain in birthing....just humans.

[Sandrine]

That I am happy to be a woman, just for that..

In the reign of animals, only the dolphins made love for the pleasure (like us), not only to have a baby.

[Sandrine]

And monkeys (chimpanzés), made love like us (missionnaire).

[Kent Allard]

Is pleasure the human version of animal's instinct?

[Landys ghost]

It's funny, but no other animals have pain in birthing....just humans. how do you know? you ever been a chicken laying an egg

[Landys ghost]

thinking about it I think you owe any woman on this site whose been through childbirth an apology, and all the ones who died in it, you ignorant twat

[Landys ghost]

yeah an eye for an eye and the whole world goes blind

so you approve of killing homosexuals? do you eat pork?

[Cupid Stunt]

Hang on, hang on...tell me what parts of the Bibble I don't believe in and I'll accept your criticism.

Back on the old version of this site you said something to the effect that you believed the stuff in the bible about Jesus but not everything. I could be wrong as I don't remember exactly what you posted so I could be wrong but I seem to remember it this way.

[Cupid Stunt]

So do you believe the bits about Adam and Eve, Noah's ark, people living hundreds of years?

[Kent Allard]

Well you have to understand that while not all the Bible may be literally true, it's all useful for one's spiritual development, and for that reason I believe in it.

[Isis]

like a little parrot I could say Yes I think so too to most of Kent's posts. I admire his spiritual insight very much. I think that the spirituality of Mother Teresa for example was important to human kind. She understood that man can not only live from bread. She said that people in the rich countries were starving for love and spirituality. I feel that applies very much to myself. Sometimes I think it would be so nice to go into a convent and just be with God all the time far away from bad things. As a matter of fact I did spend some time at a convent at 19 years of age. I wanted to join the daughter's of Mary. But the head nun told me I needed an education first. I was very upset and it never happened that way. I got married and life took a different turn. But inside the convent I had some beautiful religious experiences that was confirmed by the other nuns as well. I still keep in touch.

[Cupid Stunt]

Well you have to understand that while not all the Bible may be literally true, it's all useful for one's spiritual development, and for that reason I believe in it.

Why do I get the feeling you're ashamed of your beliefs, is that why you avoid answering questions about your faith?

So which parts aren't literally true in your opinion?

And which are?

[Cupid Stunt]

like a little parrot I could say Yes I think so too to most of Kent's posts. I admire his spiritual insight very much. I think that the spirituality of Mother Teresa for example was important to human kind. She understood that man can not only live from bread. She said that people in the rich countries were starving for love and spirituality. I feel that applies very much to myself. Sometimes I think it would be so nice to go into a convent and just be with God all the time far away from bad things. As a matter of fact I did spend some time at a convent at 19 years of age. I wanted to join the daughter's of Mary. But the head nun told me I needed an education first. I was very upset and it never happened that way. I got married and life took a different turn. But inside the convent I had some beautiful religious experiences that was confirmed by the other nuns as well. I still keep in touch.

Nice story, I do hope you get that education some day.

[Landys ghost]

People talk about this thing "spiritual development" in the Dylan context as "his spiritual journey" but who really knows if theres a destination,it may be quite pointless,what is it anyway? anyway Cupe I'm outa these "discussions" about something I dont really have any belief in

[Isis]

To live and let live is a great religion too. It doesn't say anything about having to love everybody. Just have enough respect for people wether they are atheists or believers in much higher existence. To create a better world and get together and maybe save the planet from destruction we must find a new way of thinking somehow. I think that a lot of people here have the basic same ideas about what has to be done, but are still throwing dirt at eachother. (myself included) Because WE ARE ONLY HUMANS and that is what humans do. Look in the animal kingdom, the animals are testing eachother too, testing limits, having leaders and so on.....lol We are walking skeletons with meat and muscles on and we walk with two legs instead of four, but what else separates us from the animals really? They do not create weapons of massdestruction though, that is why I wonder what's the big thing with beeing a human means? I rather be a bird sometimes....

[Kent Allard]

Everyone seems to want to ask me questions, which is fine. The best answer I can give about my belief in the bible is that it's very useful for training in important areas of life, like how to survive in a ruthless world, how to keep a clear conscience, how to live a disciplined life. And lots of other areas.

[Sandrine]

It's my conscience (and/or my morality, my education) which are important for me.

[Kent Allard]

Yes. Everyone is bad at something. Bible stories / psalms/ history and prophecy are all helpful. I speak from my own experience after 30 years as a believer.

[Cupid Stunt]

Everyone seems to want to ask me questions, which is fine. The best answer I can give about my belief in the bible is that it's very useful for training in important areas of life, like how to survive in a ruthless world, how to keep a clear conscience, how to live a disciplined life. And lots of other areas.

You're the one who wants to post about your beliefs on this board, now I've asked you the same thing several times and you refuse to answer, why is that? It seems that you're ashamed but I can't understand why that would be.

Why else wouldn't you answer a simple question about which parts of the bible you believe?

[Kent Allard]

The bible is over 1000 pages long...do I have to go through every page?

[zimmy]

yes you do

[Kent Allard]

Will you thoroughly read the whole of my reply?

[Cupid Stunt]

The bible is over 1000 pages long...do I have to go through every page?

See? you're avoiding answering again, why is that?

I'll try again, which parts of the bible do you believe?

[Kent Allard]

All of it....but you won't be happy with that.

[Cupid Stunt]

All of it....but you won't be happy with that.

So you believe that the earth was created in 6 days and that Adam and Eve were the first people on Earth?

[ersatzid]

So you believe that the earth was created in 6 days and that Adam and Eve were the first people on Earth?

I firmly believe that Adam and Eve had penetrative sex, and it wasn't for procreation either... :-)

[aspicco]

ersatzid???????? yaaaay. How the hell have you been?

[ersatzid]

Hey tp.... Jeez, so good to see you here. I'm good, though had my share of tough times. How have you been? And Your lovely wife. I'm so glad I found my way back...

[Kent Allard]

Re Adam and Eve. Look they could have been real people, couldn't they? And if it's just allegorical, it's there for a purpose.

It's like saying Chronicles isn't true...half of it may haved been pinched from Time Magazine and White Fang, but it still makes an interesting read...and with something useful to take from it.

[Cupid Stunt]

Re Adam and Eve. Look they could have been real people, couldn't they? And if it's just allegorical, it's there for a purpose.

It's like saying Chronicles isn't true...half of it may haved been pinched from Time Magazine and White Fang, but it still makes an interesting read...and with something useful to take from it.


So you don't believe the bible's account of the first people? Why not?

[Kent Allard]

I didn't say that...I said it didn't matter one way or the other.

To make my point, I'd refer you to St. Paul's letter to Timothy:

All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness

So it's useful whether it's literally true or not at specific points. Perhaps our arguments about the bible revolve around whether it's useful to us in these times. My view is aways going to be YES.

[Cupid Stunt]

I didn't say that...I said it didn't matter one way or the other.

To make my point, I'd refer you to St. Paul's letter to Timothy:

All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness

So it's useful whether it's literally true or not at specific points. Perhaps our arguments about the bible revolve around whether it's useful to us in these times. My view is aways going to be YES.


Either you misunderstand my questions or are deliberately trying not to answer them and I don't understand why. I'm not asking whether you think it is useful or what St Paul said I'm simply asking what you believe, why is it so hard to give me a straight answer?

[Kent Allard]

Okay..sorry for being stupid here. Can you please re-ask your question so I can give a clear answer. If you ask me do you believe the bible or not, I would say I do. If you were to ask if I believe, eg, in a literal 4 horsemen of the apocalyse, I would say no. But I am sure there is a genuine and significant meaning to that passage in Revelation.

[Cupid Stunt]

Okay..sorry for being stupid here. Can you please re-ask your question so I can give a clear answer. If you ask me do you believe the bible or not, I would say I do. If you were to ask if I believe, eg, in a literal 4 horsemen of the apocalyse, I would say no. But I am sure there is a genuine and significant meaning to that passage in Revelation.

Well if you don't take the bible literally I'd say you don't believe it at all.

So why don't you believe that Adam and Eve were the first people?

[Kent Allard]

Well if you don't take the bible literally I'd say you don't believe it at all.

So why don't you believe that Adam and Eve were the first people?

Not all the bible is intended to be taken literally. I suggest you look at the book of Zechariah. Here we have our first biblical introduction to the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse. The Revelation version has to be seen in conjunction with these passages in order to make sense. Both these books relate the telling of dreams. Are these dreams meant to be taken literally? I'd say no...but they were real dreams.

It's by looking at related texts together that you can get to the full meaning.

[Cupid Stunt]

Not all the bible is intended to be taken literally. I suggest you look at the book of Zechariah. Here we have our first biblical introduction to the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse. The Revelation version has to be seen in conjunction with these passages in order to make sense. Both these books relate the telling of dreams. Are these dreams meant to be taken literally? I'd say no...but they were real dreams.

It's by looking at related texts together that you can get to the full meaning.

So why take any of it literally? there's no real evidence that there was a historical Jesus, why believe he existed?

[Landys ghost]

So why take any of it literally? there's no real evidence that there was a historical Jesus, why believe he existed?

To be fair Cupe there does seem to have been a teacher in the first century who was a bit of a troublemaker, I dont argue his existence or some of his teaching, it's just that load of vengeful old testement stuff that gets up my nose, and the stupid crap of revelation and people who gullibly belive it

[Kent Allard]

So why take any of it literally? there's no real evidence that there was a historical Jesus, why believe he existed?

To experience the truths of God, you have to at least try to believe in him. Real faith, by definition, doesn't demand huge amounts of evidence. If you start to operate in faith, in only a small way, I think it's possible to experience new realities...not like taking a mind-expanding drug, but like waking up to ultimate realities.

[Sandrine]

Need we only believe to be saved ?

It will be too easy.

[Landys ghost]

Can we have examples of "ultimate realities"? and "Truths of God" ...please, so we'll know if blind faith is worthwhile

[Cupid Stunt]

To be fair Cupe there does seem to have been a teacher in the first century who was a bit of a troublemaker, I dont argue his existence or some of his teaching, it's just that load of vengeful old testement stuff that gets up my nose, and the stupid crap of revelation and people who gullibly belive it

But the only "evidence" we have for Jesus' existence comes from the gospels, the story of his virgin birth and early life is nicked wholesale from older religions, as were most of his teachings, if the bible can be read allegorically then why should the part about Jesus be taken literally?

[Cupid Stunt]

To experience the truths of God, you have to at least try to believe in him. Real faith, by definition, doesn't demand huge amounts of evidence. If you start to operate in faith, in only a small way, I think it's possible to experience new realities...not like taking a mind-expanding drug, but like waking up to ultimate realities.

But I don't think you do have "real" faith, you want to believe in Jesus but not the fairy tale bullshit that goes with it.

[ersatzid]

Suppose Jesus truly was a carpenter' son. He revolted against the existing tyranny and intead of taking to arms decided to help people. His kindness came to be well-known. He might have also accumulated a following, kind of a cult. Some ailments he could have cured by maintaining sheer hygiene. He could have started preaching basic down-to-earth philosophy too. Might have been embarassed about being called God. Possibly sent word that he would be preferred to be called God's son. One or a few of his followers could be story tellers. After he died, they started recounting the story. The concept of trinity has long existed that mighht have gotten interpreted as the Father Son and the Holy Spirit. With time and perhaps some ulterior motives, the story continued getting embellished. Someone wrote it down. A seminal piece of fiction! Thus was Bible born. Thats how legends are made. Faith by definition is blind. And it has to do with his philosophy. If you want to embody that philosophy in a person, you are free to choose Jesus or whoever, but surely it doesn't take a rocket scientist to deduce that the miraculous stories and teh immaculate conception and all "the fairy tales" associated with him are, well, just stories...

And by the way, if one can experience new realities by taking a mind-expanding drug, whats wrong with it? Thats as useful or as harmful as practising many of the rituals associated with Gods. I am not ashamed to admit that I have reached that state of mind-expanding Godliness many a times with marijuana. So for me, as perhaps for Marley, marijuana is closest to God. And I see nothing wrong in that faith either... :-)

[Landys ghost]

But the only "evidence" we have for Jesus' existence comes from the gospels, the story of his virgin birth and early life is nicked wholesale from older religions, as were most of his teachings, if the bible can be read allegorically then why should the part about Jesus be taken literally?

I'm pretty sure Ive seen one of these Time watch programmes which pointed the finger at some one,and theres the gnostic testement which states he had a brother called James and that he ended his days exiled...of course the miracles are a load of bunk made up by the early church along with the promise of everlasting life, some promise uh? and would you buy a car without any evidence of it's performance or jump off a roof confident that "God" would stop you falling? it's not rationale, I'm all for moral codes being passed down but the old T was written for Nomads and pissed off Jews and the NT to reinforce the "new religions" monopoly, the Jews were pretty pissed off with this guy and got him bumped off and thats all it is, and then they tried to frighten the shit out of any waveres with that load of crap at the end

[Landys ghost]

Suppose Jesus truly was a carpenter' son. He revolted against the existing tyranny and intead of taking to arms decided to help people. His kindness came to be well-known. He might have also accumulated a following, kind of a cult. Some ailments he could have cured by maintaining sheer hygiene. He could have started preaching basic down-to-earth philosophy too. Might have been embarassed about being called God. Possibly sent word that he would be preferred to be called God's son. One or a few of his followers could be story tellers. After he died, they started recounting the story. The concept of trinity has long existed that mighht have gotten interpreted as the Father Son and the Holy Spirit. With time and perhaps some ulterior motives, the story continued getting embellished. Someone wrote it down. A seminal piece of fiction! Thus was Bible born. Thats how legends are made. Faith by definition is blind. And it has to do with his philosophy. If you want to embody that philosophy in a person, you are free to choose Jesus or whoever, but surely it doesn't take a rocket scientist to deduce that the miraculous stories and teh immaculate conception and all "the fairy tales" associated with him are, well, just stories...

And by the way, if one can experience new realities by taking a mind-expanding drug, whats wrong with it? Thats as useful or as harmful as practising many of the rituals associated with Gods. I am not ashamed to admit that I have reached that state of mind-expanding Godliness many a times with marijuana. So for me, as perhaps for Marley, marijuana is closest to God. And I see nothing wrong in that faith either... :-)

Very good

[Landys ghost]

At least the Moslems promise you 78 virgins in the after-life, whats on offer to Christians? harps!

[Kent Allard]

Okay

But Christianiity is a permanent trip; drug induced trips can may you feel bad and they don't last long

[ersatzid]

Okay

But Christianiity is a permanent trip; drug induced trips can may you feel bad and they don't last long

Now is it? Is it a permanent trip? One wouyl like to believe so, but methinks they are deluding themselves. Besides, should one really want to be in a permanent state of mind-expansion, I wonder. It'll take the fun out of it. It will get so boring that the expansion will rapidly shrink. The transitoriness of drug-induced trips is what makes them so fascinating. Even Gods make you feel bad when you can't resist a temptation or have to go to a confessional or are ordered to repeat 5 Hail marys. So you control your temptations next time. Same with drugs, if you get a bad troip, you control its use. Voila, and hallelujah.. :-)

[Sandrine]

At least the Moslems promise you 78 virgins in the after-life, whats on offer to Christians? harps!


And for women (for Moslems) ? ?

[Landys ghost]

Now is it? Is it a permanent trip? One wouyl like to believe so, but methinks they are deluding themselves. Besides, should one really want to be in a permanent state of mind-expansion, I wonder. It'll take the fun out of it. It will get so boring that the expansion will rapidly shrink. The transitoriness of drug-induced trips is what makes them so fascinating. Even Gods make you feel bad when you can't resist a temptation or have to go to a confessional or are ordered to repeat 5 Hail marys. So you control your temptations next time. Same with drugs, if you get a bad troip, you control its use. Voila, and hallelujah.. :-)

Well they are seeking the"ultimate reality" whatever that is, reality is realising your parents had a jump,you live your little chapter and thats yer lot mate
Sounds as if he has a permenant smile on his smug chops, religion has caused more untimely and unwarranted deaths than all the drug overdoses ever, how many wars, purges, invasions, genocides, yeah something to really feel proud of

[Landys ghost]

And for women (for Moslems) ? ?

They get to clean the bedroom afterwards

[Sandrine]

With their tongues I suppose..

[Kent Allard]

Experience of God is intensely personal. Murders and genocides in the name of Christianity in inquisitions etc, deny God at a very basic level. Don't judge a religion by its members, but by it's Founder. I find little to criticise in Jesus. If anyone does, I would be interested to hear it.

[Landys ghost]

Experience of God is intensely personal. Murders and genocides in the name of Christianity in inquisitions etc, deny God at a very basic level. Don't judge a religion by its members, but by it's Founder. I find little to criticise in Jesus. If anyone does, I would be interested to hear it.

To be fair - because at least I'm objective and ..er fair ..which is more than your dogma allows you to be,to a large extent thats true,however the Old Testement does little else but teach revenge,if it's been a matter of misinterpretation by mankind then that makes it [ the Wibble] a very poor piece of communication and a failure

[Anushka]

Experience of God is intensely personal. Murders and genocides in the name of Christianity in inquisitions etc, deny God at a very basic level. Don't judge a religion by its members, but by it's Founder. I find little to criticise in Jesus. If anyone does, I would be interested to hear it.

I don't know that Jesus was Christian. Have you seen the film Religulous with Bill Mahar?

[Kent Allard]

I don't know that Jesus was Christian. Have you seen the film Religulous with Bill Mahar?

You're right...he wasn't. Committees have been trying to define what he is for 2000 years now. No-one has yet succeeded.

[Isis]

He tried to simplify for people. Everything he said was really so simple, but people didn't get it then and I donno if they get it now. The rabbies and the scolars at the time made up 600 something rules for people to live by and Christ told them they were hypocrites because they didn't follow all those rules themselves but made life very hard for the little guy who wanted to go to heaven...they made it impossible...he said: love God above everything else then love your neigbor...on this rests all the laws...you do not need to be labelled Jewish or christian or anything for to understand this...and all you need is a bvrain big enough for a bird to get it.....but nobody seems to get it...what else does people wanna know?

It really is all about LOVE and it should be so easy?

[Kent Allard]

It is easy but not if you rely on your own strength.

[Isis]

It is easy but not if you rely on your own strength.

Christ left it all up to his father in heaven=God the creator of all things.

[Kent Allard]

True, but he had infinite inner strength of his own. That's why everyone needs his power

[Landys ghost]

True, but he had infinite inner strength of his own. That's why, in my one eyed opinion, everyone needs his power...there fixed

[Isis]

Abraham Linkoln

Martin Luther King

Nelson Mandela

Mahatma Ghandi

All these men come pretty close to having that infinite inner strenght you talk about? They all had visions for the world and the people in it.

(I used to have visions...now I only hope for survival...it is SOS time for everybody now) The 5 minutes to midnight are already up....and I feel so helpless...

[Landys ghost]

Abraham Linkoln

Martin Luther King

Nelson Mandela

Mahatma Ghandi

All these men come pretty close to having that infinite inner strenght you talk about? They all had visions for the world and the people in it.

(I used to have visions...now I only hope for survival...it is SOS time for everybody now) The 5 minutes to midnight are already up....and I feel so helpless...

goodish people no doubt but no better than the millions upon millions who just go about their daily lives in intolerable situations , the meek shall inherit the earth uh, so when? isnt it time God paid up ? ok so you believe all this bullshit on your so called spiritual journey and have this "inner strength" [ fuck me like there are atheists who dont have it? ] it's just a state of mind, anyway tell me Osiris just what is the fuckin' point, whats the end product?

So were the nice men with white coats who had soft walls in your visions?

[Cupid Stunt]

You're right...he wasn't. Committees have been trying to define what he is for 2000 years now. No-one has yet succeeded.

I can define what he was - a myth!

[Cupid Stunt]

Kent, do you believe that Jesus went into the desert and lasted for forty days and nights without food or water?

[Kent Allard]

You got me on that one....yes, Jesus fasted, and ate no food (Luke's version), but it doesn't say he had no water at all. There's nothing particularly unbelievable about that. I also believe in the resurrection, though admittedly it's a little far fetched.

What interests me more than anything else is the Spirit of Elijah...and I believe in that too.

[LazySlut]

yanno native americans go on vision quests and really long runs with little food and water.... and yes, it's the freaking desert here.

[Kent Allard]

That's right. But the Sinai desert wasn't so hot. But without water you'd be a gonner within a few days. The Devil led Jesus into the desert to tempt him. That has always puzzled me. Tempting Adam is fine, but why try to tempt God? You're onto a loser from the start.

[aspicco]

Because according to the story, Jesus was also Man, not just God... so there was a risk, a possibility in the Devil's hopes...

[aspicco]

According to the story, Jesus HAD to be potentially vulnerable and be part Man. How else could he die? Without the death, the whole redemption thing is shot...

[Kent Allard]

Agreed. But why then did Elijah and Enoch disappear into heaven without dying?

[aspicco]

They were only men, right? So God was giving them a treat. They didn't have to die to redeem all us sinners. Jesus had to make the sacrifice... or else they were beamed aboard a spaceship for alien probes and the events were misconstrued?

See, I take a lot of the Bible's events as metaphors...
I think there is a lot of truth in the Bible buried under simile & centuries & mis-editing & mis-translations...all the stuff about reincarnation was edited out... so I take it all with a grain of salt...

[Landys ghost]

Surely it all depends on how accurate and believable these things are, if someone picks up "Lord of the Rings" in 2500 years time will they take it for granted that it's non-fiction? These things were written by people and, as we know, people are prone to exaggerate and....er lie?

[Landys ghost]

They were only men, right? So God was giving them a treat. They didn't have to die to redeem all us sinners. Jesus had to make the sacrifice... or else they were beamed aboard a spaceship for alien probes and the events were misconstrued?

See, I take a lot of the Bible's events as metaphors...
I think there is a lot of truth in the Bible buried under simile & centuries & mis-editing & mis-translations...all the stuff about reincarnation was edited out... so I take it all with a grain of salt...

I take it as one big con ...oops allergy, atishoo!!

[Kent Allard]

Virtually all religious traditions take Elijah and Enoch very seriously, especially Judaism. An empty chair remains for him. What I like about them is they could be walking among us right now...would we know and realise it?

Forgot to mention Melchizedek....he could be too.

[Landys ghost]

yeah of course Melchiz was one of your other names wasnt it? aye good ol' Enoch , rivers of blood and all that, whats this chair look like then? well religion is all one big con so 'scuse me if we disagree on this mr sandwich board man

[Kent Allard]

Yes, but I deny being him, as I did then. Big Dog seemed to think I was. But if you look carefully you'll find that Melchisedek is hanging around as a member on Expecting Rain. That's not me either... I would never spell it that way.

And it was Elijah who travelled on wheels of fire.

[Landys ghost]

oh rightio then - [who the fuck is he on about now?]

[Landys ghost]

maybe D took it from King Lear [ surprised an intellectual like you hasnt considered Dylan and Shakespeare]

but I am bound
Upon a wheel of fire, that mine own tears
Do scald like molten lead. (4.7.46)

[Kent Allard]

I think Shakespeare is a little overrated. Even schoolkids can only cope with modern interpretations these days. But I have to say the three witches in Macbeth are quite interesting.

[Landys ghost]

Your having a larf! Shakespeare overated?? Rather flies in the face of 99% of experts doesnt it? I accept your right not to like his work on a personal level but, overated? Thats like saying mozart wrote a couple of good tunes

[Kent Allard]

Experts who comment on Shakespeare have usually studied him in depth for academic reasons. I think most people who pick up his works hoping for a good read will find them rather impenetrable.

I studied Henry V in depth for O level English. Hated every minute of it. Still got an A grade though.

[Landys ghost]

I doubt people pick up his work to read at the airport like Harold Robins - "hoping for a good read" I could apply the very same logic to the Wibble [ not much humour in that ], which is equally impenetrable to me only more so imo - its Sunday you dont normally post on sunday isnt it a day of lazyness and wibble study?

[Kent Allard]

I haven't attended a church for many years.

[Landys ghost]

I didnt say that

[Kent Allard]

Didn't say what?

[Landys ghost]

say you went to church on Sundays....or were you just making a statement ...the internet is crap for communication, because the nuances of speech dont come over

[Kent Allard]

Well, I thought you were implying earlier that I might go to church. I was a member of one in '99. Only go there now in line with my work.

[Cupid Stunt]

Experts who comment on Shakespeare have usually studied him in depth for academic reasons. I think most people who pick up his works hoping for a good read will find them rather impenetrable.

I studied Henry V in depth for O level English. Hated every minute of it. Still got an A grade though.


A good read? The majority of his work was written to be performed by actors on a stage. Saying that I do find that some passages make great reading. I don't think that his plays are that impenetrable though, you just have to think about what you are reading.

[Cupid Stunt]

yanno native americans go on vision quests and really long runs with little food and water.... and yes, it's the freaking desert here.


For 40 days and nights?

[Cupid Stunt]

Virtually all religious traditions take Elijah and Enoch very seriously, especially Judaism. An empty chair remains for him. What I like about them is they could be walking among us right now...would we know and realise it?


How does the idea of men walking around for thousands of years sit with your analytical scientist's mind?

[Cupid Stunt]

Well, I thought you were implying earlier that I might go to church. I was a member of one in '99. Only go there now in line with my work.

Let me guess, they wouldn't conform to your beliefs? :D

[Kent Allard]

How does the idea of men walking around for thousands of years sit with your analytical scientist's mind?

No religion lines up with science too well. But then neither do human characteristics like intuition and love. They are definitely real but difficult to analyse by traditional scientific methods

[Kent Allard]

Let me guess, they wouldn't conform to your beliefs? :D

The problem was I wasn't conforming to MY OWN beliefs, never mind those of the church. At one point I was a senior member of a church, and preached fairly regularly. But I reached a point where my beliefs went a good deal further than conventional Christian belief.

We are living in the apocalypse, and armageddon took place in 1930. I know of no church which teaches that.

[Cupid Stunt]

No religion lines up with science too well. But then neither do human characteristics like intuition and love. They are definitely real but difficult to analyse by traditional scientific methods

The majority of us have felt love and therefore we know that it exists, how can you possibly compare that to a belief in some twaddle about a bloke walking the earth for thousands of years? I mean, seriously? and you claim to have a scientific analytical brain?

[Kent Allard]

I don't claim it, I actually have it...or used to...maybe I lost my mind, I don't know. But scientists were convinced a couple of months ago that there was ONE Higgs Boson. Now Fermilab research shows there are 5...someone's running for cover. Now all the theories will have to be revised.

We are working at the pinnacle of existance. If mankind can create a big bang, what is man?

[Cupid Stunt]

I don't claim it, I actually have it...or used to...maybe I lost my mind, I don't know. But scientists were convinced a couple of months ago that there was ONE Higgs Boson. Now Fermilab research shows there are 5...someone's running for cover. Now all the theories will have to be revised.

We are working at the pinnacle of existance. If mankind can create a big bang, what is man?


Scientists always discover new things in the course of research, it doesn't mean we'll suddenly discover that some old bloke has been walking around for thousands of years because some deity or other magically caused it to happen. Everything we know about our bodies from scientific research and historical evidence shows that our bodies decay, we age badly.

Man is someone who doesn't need old superstitions any more, we are nowhere near the pinnacle of existence yet but we're getting there, we just have some excess baggage to ditch first.

[zimmy]

Faith. hmmm. How long has faith been in existence? 10 years maybe?
Look at what's going on around you, there you have it. It is all sooo timeless. The Creator has it here for us so that anyone anywhere in time may see the handiwork and know, YES, some Creator is responsible. Thank God. It's woven so well alltogether. It's all sooo beautiful. Smell the blossoms of spring, taste the sweetness of the fruits, listen to the sounds of leaves rustling in the wind, climb it and look at things from a higher level. Arguements are futile and cause bitterness. We learn what is real and praise God for His mercy and everlasting love.
*what I think about the Tree of Life*

[Landys ghost]

The problem was I wasn't conforming to MY OWN beliefs, never mind those of the church. At one point I was a senior member of a church, and preached fairly regularly. But I reached a point where my beliefs went a good deal further than conventional Christian belief.

We are living in the apocalypse, and armageddon took place in 1930. I know of no church which teaches that.

Yes but what was the actual date?I ask because I wonder why the BBC arent reporting it...so whose the leader of the bad guys? [ expect a smart arse response]and whose winning, havent noticed any flying horses or anything weird like we were promised

[Cupid Stunt]

Faith. hmmm. How long has faith been in existence? 10 years maybe?
Look at what's going on around you, there you have it. It is all sooo timeless. The Creator has it here for us so that anyone anywhere in time may see the handiwork and know, YES, some Creator is responsible. Thank God. It's woven so well alltogether. It's all sooo beautiful. Smell the blossoms of spring, taste the sweetness of the fruits, listen to the sounds of leaves rustling in the wind, climb it and look at things from a higher level. Arguements are futile and cause bitterness. We learn what is real and praise God for His mercy and everlasting love.
*what I think about the Tree of Life*

That's an argument that gets used a lot but doesn't make any sense, look around you and you see proof of evolution in nature, not god. Most of those blossoms and fruit have been genetically engineered by man to make them fragrant or sweet.

Do you think Tsunamis and earthquakes are proof that god is angry with us?

[Cupid Stunt]

The problem was I wasn't conforming to MY OWN beliefs, never mind those of the church. At one point I was a senior member of a church, and preached fairly regularly. But I reached a point where my beliefs went a good deal further than conventional Christian belief.

We are living in the apocalypse, and armageddon took place in 1930. I know of no church which teaches that.


Armageddon took place in 1930? Can you actually explain that and give evidence?

[zimmy]

That's an argument that gets used a lot but doesn't make any sense, look around you and you see proof of evolution in nature, not god. Most of those blossoms and fruit have been genetically engineered by man to make them fragrant or sweet.

Do you think Tsunamis and earthquakes are proof that god is angry with us?

God's ways are not our ways. God's thoughts are not our thoughts. I won't even try to guess what God is thinking, but I'm pretty sure He knows what He is doing.
We do get to play in creation, let's call it recreation. Did not the Creator allow for us to have our hand in genetic engineering? Of course He did. He knows we like control and recreation.
That's how He made us. The birds understand.

Question for you: If a bird crapped on your BFF's head, is that God being mad at your BFF or just really really funny?

...furthermore...who created the creatures of the world to be able to evolve? Or they would ALL be extinct.

[Cupid Stunt]

God's ways are not our ways. God's thoughts are not our thoughts. I won't even try to guess what God is thinking, but I'm pretty sure He knows what He is doing.
We do get to play in creation, let's call it recreation. Did not the Creator allow for us to have our hand in genetic engineering? Of course He did. He knows we like control and recreation.
That's how He made us. The birds understand.

Question for you: If a bird crapped on your BFF's head, is that God being mad at your BFF or just really really funny?

...furthermore...who created the creatures of the world to be able to evolve? Or they would ALL be extinct.

What's a bff? Obviously it would just be funny, there is no god, there has never been a god, it's simply an old wives tale, a superstition. And what do you mean "the birds understand"? the birds don't know shit, the birds probably don't even know they are birds let alone understand or even need the concept of a deity.

Your argument still doesn't hold water, you said "oh but god exists look at the blossoms and the fruit" when I point out that man has made these things what they are you say "oh but god allows us to do it" then I say "what about disasters, does god make them" you reply "oh but we cannot understand god's ways, I won't even try to understand what he's thinking" make your mind up! you just made two very clear attempts to convince me you know god's ways all too well!

[Kent Allard]

Armageddon took place in 1930? Can you actually explain that and give evidence?

Bob Dylan said that in one of his radio shows. Blew my mind....or was it jokerman at work? I don't think so.

[Kent Allard]

Everything we know about our bodies from scientific research and historical evidence shows that our bodies decay, we age badly.


Actually our life-expectancy is increasing dramatically year by year...

But death would appear to be inevitable. It was not intended. But God is only human..

[zimmy]

What's a bff? Obviously it would just be funny, there is no god, there has never been a god, it's simply an old wives tale, a superstition. And what do you mean "the birds understand"? the birds don't know shit, the birds probably don't even know they are birds let alone understand or even need the concept of a deity.

Your argument still doesn't hold water, you said "oh but god exists look at the blossoms and the fruit" when I point out that man has made these things what they are you say "oh but god allows us to do it" then I say "what about disasters, does god make them" you reply "oh but we cannot understand god's ways, I won't even try to understand what he's thinking" make your mind up! you just made two very clear attempts to convince me you know god's ways all too well!

BFF= best friend forever

The birds understand that they don't need to worry, they just fly and sing and eat from the fat of the land. They aren't that daft, they hunt and forge.

as for tsunamis, God may or may not be angry with us. If I get hit with a tsunami, i'll tell you if I deserved it or not.
One thing I do know, everyone is born and everyone dies. We are here for such a very short time and i am so glad I do believe in God and faith in God eases my soul.
Do you believe people have a soul? or do you think we are only flesh and blood? My soul is saved, i'm quite sure of it.

[Cupid Stunt]

Bob Dylan said that in one of his radio shows. Blew my mind....or was it jokerman at work? I don't think so.

So you're back to using "Dylan said that" as an answer? So because some singer said it that's your proof? hahahahaha so much for your scientific analytical brain!

[Kent Allard]

Well according to Revelation Armageddon isnt a battle in the conventional sense, but a gathering of spiritual forces in the world.

What I find interesting about the Dylan connection is 1) how could he possibly know? 2) Why outline his belief in a major public forum?

The fact that it's such a bizarre and preposterous thing to say catches my attention. I've never seen it discussed in the press, like most of his other utterances.

[Cupid Stunt]

Actually our life-expectancy is increasing dramatically year by year...

But death would appear to be inevitable. It was not intended. But God is only human..

Yes but when the bozos you talk of existed the life expectancy must have been around 30 or so, not several thousand.

And god, were he (more likely it) to exist, would be anything but human, it would have to exist completely out of time and space and all known laws of physics.

Despite all these posts we haven't got any closer to understanding what it is you believe, you just give seemingly random replies that are quite often nonsensical, I often wonder whether you just type the first thing that comes into your head and hope that it's vague even to be mistaken for being deep or profound. It was this type of post that made me ask you what you believe in the first place, now I don't think you believe anything at all, I think this is a wind-up.

[Cupid Stunt]

Well according to Revelation Armageddon isnt a battle in the conventional sense, but a gathering of spiritual forces in the world.

What I find interesting about the Dylan connection is 1) how could he possibly know? 2) Why outline his belief in a major public forum?

The fact that it's such a bizarre and preposterous thing to say catches my attention. I've never seen it discussed in the press, like most of his other utterances.

You can't honestly believe Dylan has the answers? Do you always carry a lightbulb? Do you insist that everybody gets stoned? Do you lie awake at night wondering what a reindeer army is?

[Landys ghost]

BFF= best friend forever

The birds understand that they don't need to worry, they just fly and sing and eat from the fat of the land. They aren't that daft, they hunt and forge.

as for tsunamis, God may or may not be angry with us. If I get hit with a tsunami, i'll tell you if I deserved it or not.
One thing I do know, everyone is born and everyone dies. We are here for such a very short time and i am so glad I do believe in God and faith in God eases my soul.
Do you believe people have a soul? or do you think we are only flesh and blood? My soul is saved, i'm quite sure of it.

We're here because our parents had a shag, we are only organisms, higher evolved animals, that have a certain undefined shelf life, no I dont believe in souls, it's just the turning out of the light switch

[Landys ghost]

Bob Dylan said that in one of his radio shows. Blew my mind....or was it jokerman at work? I don't think so.

Do you really believe EVERYTHING he says?? fuck me your gullible for a "scientist" he's often saying outrageous things , personally I never believe a word of his weird sayings, hes a fucking musician for chrissakes , probably smoked some skunk , can you provide a link to this quote?

[Landys ghost]

You can't honestly believe Dylan has the answers? Do you always carry a lightbulb? Do you insist that everybody gets stoned? Do you lie awake at night wondering what a reindeer army is?

he probably does...I seriously wonder if he's on some medication for a mental problem - Kunt I mean....a "major public forum"? what , ? like "Question Time"? Kent and Dylan dont "know" anymore than any of us,Dylan winds people up and in Kunties case its pretty easy, and he wriggles out of questions, so if Armageddon is going on as we speak

a] who is the on earth ant-christ [ satan doesnt count ]

b] when will the war end?

Cupid you know that Kent believes Dylan's records and concerts are paving the way for Christ and that Dylan is JC's right hand man?

[Cupid Stunt]

BFF= best friend forever

The birds understand that they don't need to worry, they just fly and sing and eat from the fat of the land. They aren't that daft, they hunt and forge.

as for tsunamis, God may or may not be angry with us. If I get hit with a tsunami, i'll tell you if I deserved it or not.
One thing I do know, everyone is born and everyone dies. We are here for such a very short time and i am so glad I do believe in God and faith in God eases my soul.
Do you believe people have a soul? or do you think we are only flesh and blood? My soul is saved, i'm quite sure of it.


I believe that some of us develop a conscience as we go through life, some don't, people often refer to the soul when they mean the conscience. Why are you so sure that your soul is saved?

[Cupid Stunt]

he probably does...I seriously wonder if he's on some medication for a mental problem - Kunt I mean....a "major public forum"? what , ? like "Question Time"? Kent and Dylan dont "know" anymore than any of us,Dylan winds people up and in Kunties case its pretty easy, and he wriggles out of questions, so if Armageddon is going on as we speak

a] who is the on earth ant-christ [ satan doesnt count ]

b] when will the war end?

Cupid you know that Kent believes Dylan's records and concerts are paving the way for Christ and that Dylan is JC's right hand man?

Hahaha I know he's used Dylan's words to back up his claims about religion on many occasions but I always assumed he was saying that to wind you up, now I'm starting to believe he actually means it! Dylan himself doesn't even believe 90% of what he says, he contradicts himself almost constantly, for every Dylan quote there is a completely contradictory one.

"I don't care who threw the glass, I just wanna know who threw the glass" - Bob Dylan.